My first-ever Tokai LP... and I'm stumped.

[Voidoid56]

Ok, so here I am, a dozen plus years down the MIJ rabbit hole with more than 200 guitars in total having passed through my hands. Then, my first-ever Tokai LP comes along... aaand I'm a noob again. I really need some help figuring the specifics of this one and what's original or not.

It appears to be a 1985 (by serial) TLS-50CS.





The pickups: zebras, not catalog-standard for 1985, but for '84. No solder residue, so they've never been covered. Tall legs, two round and one square hole in the top bobbins, gold anodized bottom plate, dark grey leads. They seem close to the "57 PAF" type introduced in 1982, but there's no sticker and bottom plate and lead are the wrong colours. Resistance values in the 8.1-8.2k range.









And then there's what's going in the control rout. It's a very neat, professional-looking job with no tangible signs of tampering at all. The pots are standard MIJ fare... only with 1986 and -87 date codes (three 74 and one 63). There's a transparent sheet of plastic closest to the top, partially contoured to the rout shape. I haven't been able to find a pic of an LS control rout from the mid-late 80's. Is this how it's supposed to look?



Any informed input would be much appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Sigmania]

Man…. I was half asleep when I wrote that about LCs. My dog woke me up at 4 in the morning and my eyes were pretty crusty then.

Please disregard my post. I deleted it.

HNGD

 

[Voidoid56]

Man…. I was half asleep when I wrote that about LCs. My dog woke me up at 4 in the morning and my eyes were pretty crusty then.

Please disregard my post. I deleted it.

Well, whatever it was, I completely missed it, so no worries.

 

[Sigmania]

Good! I have no business getting on here and posting anything when I am half asleep. I often regret it.

 

[Sigmania]

So just to look at overall specs with catalogs,

Both the 1985 Traditional catalog and the Finland version catalog show zebra pickups on the TLS50.

Pickups change between 1985 and 1986 from the "57 Vintage MKII" to "PAF Vintage MKII".

The TLS60 is a flame veneer top, so looks like a TLS50.

I also don't know when the PCB was phased out?


Here is the 1985 Traditional catalog:


and the 1985 Finland copy catalog



and here is the 1986 catalog with double cream pickups on the TLS50.

 

[Sigmania]

There were clearly some disruptions in production in 1985 as evidenced by the LC models that suddenly stop then resume 4-5 years later.

1985 Split Diamond LC Models Made By Tokai

Serial number completely change format on bolt neck models in early 1986.

Based on Homer's excellent research, the factory seems to have moved sometime in this period and there were other things happening. I assume this guitar got tangled up in that as evidenced by the pots.

 

[Sigmania]

Here is a description from 22 years ago of a 1984 TLS50 with zebra pickups.

LS / TLS 50 construction

beerslinger:

"I have an LS50,which has a two piece top(hard to see the joint,it almost looks like one piece),a two piece back and the neck is one solid piece of mahogany. sin 4020899.Pups are zebra and open,haven't checked under them yet."

"I pulled the Pups on my '84 LS 50 today while changing the strings and it also has Tokai '57 PAF model (Sticker on bottom) pickups. The top is a 2 piece 1/2" solid maple cap."

 

[Sigmania]

What I am wondering is if your guitar was actually not finished until 1987? In other words, if the solder all looks good I wonder if the pickups were installed after 1985.

Because a 1985 TLS50 with zebras should have 57 MKII pickups it seems. Yours are not the 57 zebras. Note the poles as well as the lead wires.

The 1986 and 1987 model TLS50 had double cream pickups.

Here is a TLS50 with the labeled 57 pickups. SN 5027177.

銘機希少 Tokai TLS-50 (LS-50) BB 1985年製 58' Les paul Standard type/57' PAF VINTAGE MKⅡ 2基搭載 /ギグケース付

 

[Sigmania]

1987 catalog. Double creams just like the 1986 catalog, so that doesn't help.

 

[Sigmania]

Could it be that the guitar was completely re-wired in 1987?

I am still not sure when the PCB was phased out?

There was a plastic contoured sheet like yours under the PCB in my 1981 LS100.

 

[frehley76]

My 85 had the same electronics with the plastic.

 

[Sigmania]

My 85 had the same electronics with the plastic.

Same pickups?

What are/were your pot dates?

 

[Sigmania]

Holy crap. I just remembered that I had a 1985 LS over 10 years ago and looked at my pictures.

Now I am thinking mine may have been an TLS60. 1 piece body, veneer top, polyurethane finish (the finish did not react to acetone when I tested it).

Specs seem confusing and inconsistent in this period.

Look at the pot dates... May 1986 & July 1987.... And the pickups...

SN 5031715

 

[Sigmania]

So at the time when I posted pics of this guitar in 2013, the response I got back then was that this was made during a strange period at Tokai where the specs were inconsistent (1 piece back & poly finish) and it was suggested that was related to disruptive financial struggles at the company.

Like your guitar, this one has a 1985 production date, but was not wired until up to 2 years later it would seem.

At the time no one could definitively say what it was and now I can understand why.

I now think mine was actually a TLS60 (polyurethane finish) with what seemed at the time to be a one piece back, but I was a newb and could have missed the seam.

So thank you for making me go back and take another look at it. With the guitar you posted and the post by frehley76, I think I understand better what it was.

 

[Sigmania]

So welcome to the Love Rock club!

Looks like we both had 1985 oddballs for our first Tokai LS guitars.

I was impressed by the sustain in mine and soon bought a 1982 LS80 (also an anomaly with a solid flamed top).

Been hooked ever since.

 

[Voidoid56]

Great research as usual, Sigmania, thanks!

Yes, the thought of it being a 1985 guitar rescued half-finished from the 1985 crisis and then wired up and sold two years later actually did enter my mind. It seems not unlikely, given all the weirdness that their tussle with Fender gave rise to. I've found a few very similar 1985 serial -50's online, but so far, none with clear pics of the pot codes.

Btw, my guitar is quite light, just over 3,8 kg, and judging from a few sales ads giving the weight, others of the same model and serial year could be as well. Since there is (to my knowledge) no chambering in these guitars, I would assume that they just happened to find a batch of exceptionally light mahogany at the time? Nice feature either way.

 

[Sigmania]

SN 5031795 ?

Another 1985 serial number with pots from 1987...

Mystery Gold Top Owned By Hunter

 

[Sigmania]

Around this time Tokai nearly went bust, it was the worst period in the companies history so that may also have a bearing on what was going on at the time.

Mick

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